I previously reported that a manual count (via progressive dilutions of the sample) of our L. reuteri yogurt yielded a bacterial count of 28 billion per 1/2-cup serving—substantial, far more than bacterial counts (of Lactobacillus bulgaricus and Streptococcus thermophilus) contained in conventional yogurt that are typically in the millions. In the world of microbiome manipulation, it is becoming clear that millions make no difference; tens or hundreds of billions are required for meaningful biological effect when introduced into the 100 trillion microbes of the human microbiome. The trivial bacterial counts of conventional store-bought yogurt are due to the push to minimize production times: 4 hours of fermentation is more financially productive than our 36 hours of fermentation. But we don’t care about financial productivity; we care about biological and health effects.
I therefore had three successive samples of our L. reuteri yogurt analyzed by another method: flow cytometry. This is a computerized system in which bacteria are counted using a laser as bacteria flow through a thin column in liquid. By this more precise method, the counts were much higher: 204 billion per 1/2-cup serving.
That’s impressive. It means that my method of using prolonged fermentation to allow 12 doublings (L. reuteri doubles every 3 hours at 100 degrees F) in the presence of prebiotic fiber works—and it works extravagantly. This is a big part of the reason why most people consuming the L. reuteri yogurt are experiencing huge health benefits rapidly. Recall that we start with the relatively trivial bacterial numbers of the two L. reuteri strains contained in the BioGaia Gastrus product of 200 million per tablet, a dose conceived for benefits to infants to reduce regurgitation and infantile colic. Take a tablet and not a lot happens for us adults. But make “yogurt” using prolonged fermentation and prebiotic fibers and you increase bacterial counts 1000-fold.
I believe this means that we have leeway in making mixed-culture yogurts, i.e., fermenting with more than one species. Fermenting bacteria is a lot like growing vegetables in your backyard garden. In your 10 x 10-foot plot, say you plant tomatoes. At the end of the growing season, you are going to have a bounty of tomatoes. But plant tomatoes, zucchini, cucumbers, and squash—how many tomatoes will you have? Far fewer. The more vegetables you plant, the more they compete for space, water, sun, and nutrients. The same process applies to microbes: Ferment with one species and you will obtain a high count. Ferment with more than one species and counts will be lower.
One thing I do not know is the number of bacteria required to generate the effects we desire, such as smoother skin with reduced wrinkles, accelerated healing, restoration of youthful muscle and strength, and increased empathy, as we have not yet performed a dose-response study. Do these effects develop at 10 billion, 25 billion, 50 billion, 100 billion? Is the effect greater with higher counts? These questions have yet to be explored.
But I believe you are on solid ground if you ferment L. reuteri with one or two additional species such as Lactobacillus casei Shirota for enhanced immunity and deeper sleep, Lactobacillus gasseri BNR17 to shrink your waist and push back bacterial overgrowth, or Bacillus coagulans GBI-30,6086 for reduced joint pain and reduced muscle breakdown during strenuous exercise.
204 billion! Wow that’s impressive. If my math is correct then there are more than 1 trillion microbes in a whole quart, right?
Bob, after talking to you, last week I made my first batch of reuteri yogurt with 10 tablets. Even though it was the first batch and fermented with whole goat milk, it came out so thick and delicious! I was expecting a little runny. Thank you again for your help. (Btw, the gastrus that I got changed 3 countres to get here.)
I’ve been eating it for 2 days with GBI-30,6086 yogurt and so far the only change that I got is the softness and smoothness of my skin. I can’t wait to see more results.
There’s no way for me to find Shirota and BNR17. I would love to make yogurt out of them. I’m thinking to use another strain of gasseri as an experiment. As an another experiment, I also want to ferment fruit juice with GBI-30,6086.
Thanks to Dr. Davis I’ve learned so much about microbiome.
Sergen Tuncer wrote: «If my math is correct then there are more than 1 trillion microbes in a whole quart, right?»
1.6ᴇ12 it appears.
re: «Btw, the gastrus that I got changed 3 countres to get here.)»
Then the others might not be out of reach.
re: «There’s no way for me to find Shirota and BNR17.»
The nearest region for Yakult® appears to be Italy. The problem, of course, is that it needs to be refrigerated to assure survival of the cultures in transit, and actual freezing can burst the flimsy bottles used for the retail product.
Even in the U.S, people have been ordering the AceBiome product directly from Korea. I haven’t yet tried to order any directly. I was able to set the page to Turkey (TL568.76 + TL19.28 EMS).
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Refrigeration sounds like a hassle. Otherwise, I would have gotten it from Germany.
Prescription is needed in order to get supplement from abroad. Without prescription, it’s not possible to get it from customs.
Thanks anyway.
Which probiotics do you ferment?
Sergen Tuncer wrote: «Refrigeration sounds like a hassle. Otherwise, I would have gotten it from Germany.»
The L. casei (Shirota), can also be frozen, just not safely in the retail Yakult® containers. Also, Yakult is not sold as a supplement, but just as a fermented beverage. So you might get a package in Germany, decant some of it to a container that can be frozen, and bring it home in an insulated bag.
re: «Prescription is needed in order to get supplement from abroad. Without prescription, it’s not possible to get it from customs.»
Can a doctor or pharmacist order it themselves?
re: «Which probiotics do you ferment?»
Those marked ☑ in my Not-Really-Yogurt Recipes Roll-Up. I have some BNR17 (gasseri), but haven’t brewed any yet.
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It’s easier for me to get Yakult compared to BNR17. I’ll give it some thought on how to get it.
Probably, a doctor can order it (not sure about pharmacist). As long as there is a prescription you can order it yourself. When the item is arrived, customs requests your prescription via mail. This is basically how it works. I haven’t tried it before.
Bob Niland wrote: «The starter needs to be mixed in by hand, and not by using a blender (stick or otherwise).»
I use sterilized (with boiling hot water) bowl and spoon for this job. Would that be a problem?
So, you ferment 3 strains of reuteri. How interesting the same species but different effects.
Also, as a backup I froze 4 cubes of whey from reuteri yogurt since it’s hard to come by. I don’t want to use all the remaining capsules at once.
Sergen Tuncer wrote: «I use sterilized (with boiling hot water) bowl and spoon for this job. Would that be a problem?»
As long as the utensils are at or below ferment temperature in use, that should be fine.
re: «So, you ferment 3 strains of reuteri. How interesting the same species but different effects.»
I’ve been trying them as Dr. Davis discovers them. Since I last posted to the blog, I’ve updated my roll-up article, which now shows 9 species, and has a draft table of expected effects. I expect to add another shortly, and may grey-out the Akkermansia, as no reliable fermenting process is so far available (it’s an obligate anerobe, so home ferment may be out of reach).
re: «Also, as a backup I froze 4 cubes of whey from reuteri yogurt since it’s hard to come by. I don’t want to use all the remaining capsules at once.»
That’s not too different a situation from summertime here. Ordering more tablets when there’s risk of >75°F in transit, adds risk. So when I have to re-start from tabs, I consider the batch to be mostly dedicated starter for the freezer.
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Akkermansia and Oxalobacter fermentations could be interesting.
There is a substitute of Innovix®’s mood probiotic in Turkey which contains Lactobacillus helveticus R0052, Bifidobacterium longum R0175 and Lactobacillus rhamnosus R0011. I even checked it out earlier today. I think I’ll give it a try in a few months. As far as I understand they prefer sugar instead of inulin. Good to know.
Even though I’m super careful about utensil’s hygiene, I just didn’t leave it to chance and froze some whey as dedicated starter. Better safe than sorry.
Update on the B coagulans fermenting. I just finished a 36 hour batch at 101 to 105 degrees. 100% success.
Erin
ErinC wrote: «…B coagulans fermenting. I just finished a 36 hour batch at 101 to 105 degrees. 100% success.»
Great, and thanks for the report.
That give us some flexibility, particularly for multi-species ferments.
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Thank you Erin. Where did you obtain your starter?
Claudia, I used 2 capsules of the Digestive Advantage by Schiff (two billion each). Fermented in one quart half and half w/two tablespoons inulin.
Erin
ErinC wrote: «…I used 2 capsules of the Digestive Advantage by Schiff…»
Readers need to be aware that “Digestive Advantage” is a broad Schiff product line, not all suitable for our purpose, as many contain probiotics other than B.coagulans.
The one I used is “Schiff Digestive Advantage Daily Probiotic — 30 Capsules”, UPC 8 15066 00166 9, seen here on Vitacost.
The Not-Really-Yogurt Recipes Roll-Up article on UIC (public) has links to specific probiotic product sources.
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Hi has anyone used the raw probiotic capsule Dr. Davis recommends and ferment it ?
David Martin wrote: «…has anyone used the raw probiotic capsule Dr. Davis recommends and ferment it?»
If by that you mean the Garden of Life brand RAW Probiotic™, I found one report on the Inner Circle forum, but no outcome stated (and it was a coconut milk attempt, for extra confounding).
In general, here are the considerations for using a random multi-species probiotic as a starter culture:
• Do we really know what they are?
Most probiotics ‘neglect’ to specify strains, and often CFUs-by-species. So if we get some benefit to a fermentation, it can be hard to credit what did what.
• The initial probiotic itself is likely post-blended.
The microbes typically require substantially different substrates, temperatures and times to generate useful CFUs. Some generate bacteriocins (L.reut does), which would impair other species if brewed together. Some generate metabolic byproducts also toxic to other species. So GoL probably evolves the various species separately, and they meet for the first time just prior to encapsulation.
• So how do we ferment?
We don’t know ideal substrate, temp or time. Can we even find a configuration that would ensure equal growth rates of all species? Can any resulting product be paid forward as future starter? Doubts everywhere.
• And even that assumes an all bacteria scenario.
GoL RAW includes two species of Saccharomyces, a yeast (fungus). One of its metabolic byproducts is alcohol, which would clobber the bacteria, and eventually the Saccs themselves. The result, if even palatable, might be more beergurt than yogurt.
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Bob. I see your rational. And makes sense. This fermentation process need to be mindful of key questions and you outlined them. I have made the keefer lifeway to make a real nice batch, and obviously not apples to apples vs Gol.
Is there a product available that just contains the bnr17 strain?
Michael Fercho wrote: «Is there a product available that just contains the bnr17 strain?»
At retail in the U.S., no. There is a US licensee, but they are only interested in wholesale deals. How many car lengths is your railroad siding?
The more adventurous have been ordering a product from Korea. BNR17 비에날씬프로 다이어트 모유유래 30캡슐1박스/DY (BNR17 Vienal Thin Pro Diet Breast-derived 30 Capsules 1 Box/DY), from Gmarket. I have not tried this yet.
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I ordered the BNR17 from Gmarket and wondering how many capsules do I use to ferment my yogurt?
Michael Fercho wrote: «I ordered the BNR17 from Gmarket and wondering how many capsules do I use to ferment my yogurt?»
Dr. Davis has reported success with one capsule per quart|liter, 2 tbsp. prebiotic fiber, 109°F, 36 hours.
I have no BNR17, so have no personal experience with it yet. But when I do, my expectation is that the initial probiotic-started batch will be different than subsequent batches cultured from saved yogurt (or whey, if any).
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I have a Luvelle Yogurt maker and have been separately fermenting l. reuteri and Lactobacillus casei Shirota. there are three temperature presets: 97° , 100° and 104° . Reuteri I ferment @100° and casei Shirota @ 104° .
I have not tried the Lactobacillus gasser BNR17 or Bacillus coagulans GBI-30,6086. Would you assume they will work at 104° or am I going to need yet another device?
Claudia J wrote: «… three temperature presets: 97° , 100° and 104° … or Bacillus coagulans GBI-30,6086. Would you assume they will work at 104° …»
I have no predictions about B.coagulans at 104°F. It would be an easy experiment for you to run, however.
re: «I have not tried the Lactobacillus gasser BNR17…»
Nor have I, due to availability.
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I forgot to add that prefer to ferment them separately since I bought my third Sous Vide set up!
Yes, I remember reading on Undoctored or Wheatbelly that 110 F and above kills of L. R.
Good News!
Question: I thought I read recently that B coagulans needs to be fermented at a higher temperature than L reuteri (122 degrees). My understanding is this temp will kill L reuteri. Can you clarify?
Thank you,
Erin
ErinC wrote: «I thought I read recently that B coagulans needs to be fermented at a higher temperature than L reuteri (122 degrees). My understanding is this temp will kill L reuteri.»
Here’s what I think I know about temps & other matters.
The peak reproduction temp for L.r. may be 97°F, and for L.coag. 125°F. The die-off temp for L.r. may be 122°F, and I have no idea what it might be for L.coag. However, Dr. Davis has reported success with L.coag. down to 106°F.
L.r. can ferment up to 110°F in my experience, but if the device varies in temp, and spends much time above 115°F, results are less happy. I stopped using a not-so-smart pot that varied between 105-115, and replaced it with my light-bulb-in-cooler rig. I lately had to upgrade that rig to add a controller and hotter bulb so that I could set arbitrary temps without a lot of trial and error (although it still can’t cold-start). I make my L.r. at ~98°F, and my L.coag. at ~122°F.
If all you had was a device that wants to run at, say, 109°F±2°F, it might work for all the recipes so far.
Now, if anyone is wondering about brewing a blend at some common compromise temp, I can’t make any guesses on that, as other variables come into play, particularly bacteriocins, where one strain might kill off another by means entirely apart from out-competing it for substrate.
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Thank you. My rigged temp control for my small crock pot is 101 to 105 and can’t be modified. It works great for L.reuteri and L.casei Shirota. I think I’ll break down and buy another device with more temp range and play around with it.
Thanks again, Erin