Those of you who have been following my discussions recognize that, in the world of microbes, strain can matter. Don’t stifle a yawn: this can be important, especially if you desire extravagant, life- and health-changing benefits.
My favorite illustration of the potential importance of microbial strains: You have E.coli living in your gastrointestinal (GI) tract, your family has E. coli, your friends and co-workers have E. coli. But eat lettuce contaminated with E. coli from cow manure and you can die of E. coli—same species, different strain.
Not all differences among strains are life-or-death distinctions. A less dramatic difference can be seen with Lactobacillus rhamnosus GG strain that has been shown to shorten the number of days you have diarrhea after taking a course of antibiotics. This effect appears to be unique to the GG strain. It means that, if you pay a lot of money for a commercial probiotic that contains L. rhamnosus with no strain specified, you cannot rely on it to achieve this effect–it likely does not, as the science generated to support an effective application is factored into the cost of the microbe: non-GG, maybe $400 per kilogram; GG: maybe something like $1100 per kilogram. Which do you think many manufacturers will choose if they hope that you can’t tell the difference?
When I first set out to understand the effects of Lactobacillus reuteri, I began with the DSM 17938 and ATCC PTA 6475 strains that were used in the original brilliant studies performed between 2013 and 2017 at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) by a group researching the anti-cancer effects of this microbe. I therefore obtained the same strains used in their studies that are available as the Gastrus product from the Swedish probiotic company, BioGaia. But this product is intended for infants and therefore had what I regarded as trivial numbers of bacteria: 100 million of each strain. (That sounds like a lot, but in the world of microbes, it is minor for an adult.) I therefore fermented it to increase the numbers. Recall that microbes do not reproduce sexually—there are no mommy and daddy microbes—but engage in asexual reproduction: they just double. L. reuteri doubles approximately every 3 hours at 100 degrees F. One microbe becomes two, two becomes four, and so on.
Unlike commercial yogurt-making that ferments for 4 hours or home yogurt-making that typically proceeds for 12 hours, I fermented for 36 hours to allow 12 doublings. If you remember the kids’ riddle that asks “Which would you rather have: $1 million or a penny that doubles every day for 30 days?” Kids almost always choose the $1 million, not recognizing that the penny will exceed $5.5 million dollars. But dramatic increases in money don’t develop until day 27 or 28. The same principles applies to L. reuteri: substantial numbers don’t get underway until hour 30 or 33. The last flow cytometry measure we conducted (a laser-driven computerized counting method), we counted 240-260 billion microbes per 1/2-cup serving. These big numbers are likely a major reason that explains why we experience huge health benefits: increased empathy, increased libido, deeper sleep, restoration of youthful muscle and strength, reduction in appetite, improved immune response, reduced stress effects, etc.
So we see these effects with the two Gastrus strains fermented to very high numbers in the hundreds of billions. But are the effects unique to these two strains?
I personally experience extravagant effects with L. reuteri yogurt. For one, I have had insomnia for decades, made worse, I believe, by my 17 years of education and training during which it was not uncommon to work 80-90 hours per week, a schedule that cut back on sleep (made worse, by the way, by the moonlighting I did later in my training to pay back $130,000 in student debt–30 years ago, a lot of money back then, as it remains now.) For years, I relied on exhaustion, taking mega-doses of melatonin, tryptophan, and other crutches to sleep. With L. reuteri yogurt, I now sleep 9 hours every night, experience vivid dreams, and need none of these other sleep crutches to enjoy a deep and restful night of sleep. I believe that this is one effect we get with L. reuteri from the boost in oxytocin it triggers. So I believe that I am able to gauge when a strain of L. reuteri works or not.
I have an advantage here: I have been able to obtain multiple strains of L. reuteri from manufacturers who carry collections of this and other microbial species and strains. I have now made the yogurt, using the same extended fermentation, with 7 additional strains. It’s not been easy: before embarking on consuming a yogurt made with a new strain, I allow the effects of the old strain to “wash out” over 5 days, then consume yogurt made with the new strain. Lo and behold, I have experienced all the same effects as with the original strains. I believe that one of the strains also generated a greater effect. (The one strain that I would not recommend is the NCIMB 30242; while I believe that it also provokes oxytocin, it lacks a bacteriocin, the natural antibiotic(s) effective against SIBO.)
I have put together a small animal study in which we will compare several strains, then measure blood oxytocin levels to assess whether one or another strain is superior for this effect, that will then be studied further via human clinical studies. So stay tuned—this could get very interesting. In the meantime, should you make the yogurt with another strain, please report back your experience.
I have celiac disease and collagenous colitis and maybe this would help my gut to heal.
Where do you purchase L-reuteri to make yogurt.
Nancy Boswell wrote: «Where do you purchase L-reuteri to make yogurt.»
Where are you on the planet?
In the U.S., when I need more, I order the BioGaia® Gastrus® directly from BioGaia USA.
iHerb® might be OK, but I would avoid any on-line sources that have multiple ‘sellers’ offering what may or may not be the same product.
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Hello All,
Does anyone have any information regarding the LR11 strain of L. Reuteri? I can get it here in australia and it is free of some of the additives that BioGaia uses so I’m keen to try it out.
I’m wondering the particular benefits and if it would be possible to make the yoghurt from it.
Thanks in advance
Tahli Gaia wrote: «Does anyone have any information regarding the LR11 strain of L. Reuteri?»
It’s been asked about, but I’m not aware of any answers … beginning with: is that an accession number at a recognized type culture repository, or just some made-up branding number (and if the latter, what’s the real strain)?
I’ve also seen no reports from anyone who has tried it, much less compared it to the strains being explored in the program.
re: «I can get it here in australia and it is free of some of the additives that BioGaia uses so I’m keen to try it out.»
Don’t fret over the Gastrus® ingredients. They are immaterial across the served portions of the initial batch of yogurt, and of no consequence at all when that batch is used as starter for later batches.
re: «I’m wondering the particular benefits and if it would be possible to make the yoghurt from it.»
It’s easily possible, and report any results if you do. Discovering the optimal temp and growth medium could be a challenge. Guessing at 37°C, half cream & inulin might work.
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Does anyone have any information on SD-5865 strain of L. reuteri? Cutting Edge Cultures uses that strain and leads one to believe that it is the same as others
jack morgan wrote: «…information on SD-5865 strain of L. reuteri?»
That’s a frequently asked question, with, so far, no frequently supplied answer. I haven’t even been able to find out what the “SD” means … in what appears to be (but may not be) an accession number in some type culture collection. It might merely stand for Strain Designation.
Reports periodically surface that it might be the same as Lactobacillus reuteri UALre-16, in case you want to search for papers on either.
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So would it be of greater benefit to combine CEC (SD-5865) with Bio-gaia gastrus? Also does the yogurt lose strength after so many repetitive remakes?
I accidentally left mine on for 9 extra hours, do you think it changed anything re: microbe numbers? The yogurt was fine and we consumed it.
Cathi1t wrote: «So would it be of greater benefit to combine CEC (SD-5865) with Bio-gaia gastrus?»
Maybe, so please do report if you try.
re: «Also does the yogurt lose strength after so many repetitive remakes?»
No, unless damaged or contaminated. These generational-starter risks can be driven to nil by using most of the initial batch as saved frozen starter. I drain all the liquid, and then decant some of the solids into an ice cube tray, frozen, bagged and labeled. Slowly thaw one cube per qt/L for saved-starter use.
Now, with multiple-culture starters, there is also some question of strain-to-strain relative population drift when using the generational method, and this has not really been studied for the program yogurts. But heck, the Gastrus® itself is a two-strain blend, and the benefits seem to be resilient over dozens of generations. Nonetheless…
When I make a blend (such as the SIBO yogurt, or my house blend: Gastrus®+Yakult®), I use separate saved starter of each.
re: «I accidentally left mine on for 9 extra hours, do you think it changed anything re: microbe numbers?»
I’ve accidentally run batches to 54h (+18h) with no apparent ill effect. I wouldn’t use such as batch for on-going starter, however.
It’s hard to say what might be going on. At 36h, the lactose is presumably gone, and the bugs are chewing on the prebiotic extender. As long as there’s still some of that, the CFUs will keep growing. Once exhausted, die-off looms. The neat thing about L.reuteri is that major health benefits accrue even when they are dead. But I wouldn’t push my luck.
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Any information on beneficial strains confirmed to be negatively correlated with obesity aside from the strains patented by BioGaia?
The BioGaia is grown on barley and though they state the final product meets European standards for gluten free, my extremely negative reaction (horrible gut pain and spike in liver enzymes) makes me doubt this. Waiting for a gluten test kit to be sure but looking for an alternative strain at the same time.
I’ve read that many of the strains are correlated with obesity. I’m really interested in the positive effects but not at the cost of my healthy BMI!
Rose Budau wrote: «Any information on beneficial strains confirmed to be negatively correlated with obesity aside from the strains patented by BioGaia?»
BiotiQuest Sugar Shift might be one.
re: «The BioGaia is grown on barley and though they state the final product meets European standards for gluten free, my extremely negative reaction (horrible gut pain and spike in liver enzymes) makes me doubt this.»
Is this in reaction to taking (what I presume is) the Gastrus® tablets directly, or after having used 10 of them to culture a quart\litre or more of yogurt?
The non-bacterial ingredients in the tablets are at least diluted by making yogurt, and the saccharides are metabolized by the bacteria. Then, reserving that batch, as ice cubes, for use as future starter, makes any original non-bacterial tablet ingredients nil in later ‘production’ batches.
In any case, your reaction is not one I recall seeing before. It would be important to run it to ground, and if confirmed, explore options. I might add that a family member is acutely wheat sensitive (addressing that was how I first encountered the Wheat Belly book), and had several awful days lately due to a bit of wheat flour in a restaurant cheese sauce. This person has no such reactions to the Gastrus-based L.r. yogurt I make.
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The BiotiQuest looks interesting- I’ve sent them an email. Doesn’t mention if it’s gluten free (which often means its not!).
I was actually taking the BioGaia Osfortis which is just the ATCC 6475. I have never had a negative reaction to a probiotic before, but kept taking it thinking maybe my body just needed to adjust. Day one felt suspiciously like gluten-poisoning but I persisted. After a week and a half I couldn’t take it anymore (sheering pain also started referring into my right shoulder) and quit. Symptoms resolved quickly over the next few days. I just happened to get my monthly blood work at that time and was surprised to find my liver enzymes elevated out of range which has never actually happened to me before! I didn’t immediately make the connection but when I googled elevated liver enzymes, celiac disease was identified as a common culprit.
I had the same thought about dilution being the solution so I made yogurt using just one capsule (as it already has a 10 billion count) and used that to inoculate the 2nd generation and the 2nd generation to inoculate 3rd. I’ve just been giving it to my friend until my test kits arrive. But maybe it is safe to try it at this point lol. I am just very sensitive to gluten cross-contamination.
Thanks for the reply and the suggestions!
Rose Budau wrote: «I was actually taking the BioGaia Osfortis which is just the ATCC 6475.»
Ah. I have a bottle of that in the deep freeze, and used it once for trip where I couldn’t take the yogurt. The appeal is the higher CFUs vs. the Gastrus.
There appear to be few people in the Blog or Inner Circle communities who are taking the BioGaia products directly. They are mostly used as starter cultures, so there isn’t a lot of feedback on reactions to the tabs & caps per se.
re: «I had the same thought about dilution being the solution…»
I see it as a serendipitous side effect of my dedicated started approach, which is mainly designed to build a supply of convenient starter units (slowly-thawed ice cubes), and also makes moot the common first-batch-syndrome issues.
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BiotiQuest reported back that they are gluten free.
I’ve restarted my L. Reuteri yogurt as the third batch was a bit weird and cheesy. The second batch was perfectly textured but smelled a bit goaty or cheese. I’m going to follow your lead and freeze this new one into cubes!
I’m sure there is another thread around here on the yogurt but did anyone find it smelled a little cheesy or like goat products? I used A2 milk.
In any case, I will reply back after I try the yogurt in the next couple days. Hopefully reporting I had no negative reaction to the yogurt (in case anyone ends up having a similar problem to me)!
Rose Budau wrote: «I used A2 milk.»
I just made a batch of the household usual L.r.(Gastrus®)+L.c.(Yakult®) using A2 half&half. It had a bit more whey than our usual A1-based H&H brew, but otherwise looked just like a retail yogurt.
We haven’t tasted it yet, however, as there are still a few more days of the earlier A1 batch to finish off. As I’ve reported previously, I’ve also used fresh goat milk, and powdered goat milk, with the same results in terms of consistency.
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I’ve tested the BioGaia and the yogurt I made. The BioGaia probiotic tested positive for gluten. I tested the second generation yogurt and it was negative. So dilution is the solution :)
I’ve followed the updated instructions on the Luvele (yogurt maker) website and just did 24 hour incubations this time. The yogurt has come out perfect every time, including the first batch!
Rose Budau wrote: «The BioGaia probiotic tested positive for gluten. I tested the second generation yogurt and it was negative. So dilution is the solution :)»
Thank you for that report. So for those with celiac disease, or who are acutely NCGS, this argues for making your first batch just a starter batch for future batches. And as I often point out, it can be frozen as ice cubes, slowly-thawed for use, one cube per qt/litre.
re: «I’ve followed the updated instructions on the Luvele (yogurt maker) website and just did 24 hour incubations this time. The yogurt has come out perfect every time, including the first batch!»
Not recommended; that’s going to make yogurt, not progurt. The point of the recipe here is not to make a mimic of a retail yogurt, but to exploit the same fermentation process to explode CFUs counts of the sought microbes. The explosion hasn’t even started at 24h. The makers of the probiotics don’t get this, nor do the makers of the makers.
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I’ve made two batches of yogurt with l. reuteri (NCIMB 30242). This strain has been shown to reduce cholesterol and increase vitamin D. On Selfhack, they quote a study which shows l reuteri 30242 increased free bile acids, total bile acids (critical for digestion and absorption of fats) and the ratio of Firmicutes to Bacteroidetes (study’s show a low F/B ratio has been linked to IBD, depression, type 1 diabetes, lupus, CFS, old age and antibiotic use). No mention of the benefits attributed to the strains that Dr. Davis recommends (the PTA 6475 and DSM 17938), but I believe I am sleeping better after just a few days of consuming the NCIMB 30242 :-)
Kate Ellis wrote: «I’ve made two batches of yogurt with l. reuteri (NCIMB 30242).»
That’s apparently also known as Lactobacillus reuteri UALre-16, and is a strain being tracked by the program. I’ve also made a ’30242-based progurt, but preferred the taste of the Gastrus®-based recipe.
re: «This strain has been shown to reduce cholesterol…»
Per the selfhack blog, that would appear to be TC and “LDL”. TC is immaterial over a wide range, and LDL is usually a frank junk number. If ’30242 reduces TG and/or actually-measured Small LDL-P, that would more interesting.
re: «…and increase vitamin D.»
That’s usually more effectively addressed by adjusting a simple supplement. But to the extent that it has an effect, be sure to re-check 25OH-D₃ at some point.
re: «…but I believe I am sleeping better after just a few days of consuming the NCIMB 30242…»
Cool. When you get that effect, it’s pretty easy to challenge, and prove to yourself that it’s real.
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Hello – I will be making my first batch of yogurt. Today I found ultra pasteurized A2 50/50 at Wholefoods with no additives. I also found 100% grass fed 50/50. Which one is preferable? Thank you!
L Hom wrote: «…ultra pasteurized A2 50/50 at Wholefoods with no additives. … 100% grass fed 50/50. Which one is preferable?»
If you have a known reactivity to casein beta A1 (what’s predominant in North American herds), then by all means use the A2. Otherwise, I’ve been getting great results with UHT A1 H&H.
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Thanks Bob. Homebrewing dot org has the WLP672 as of yesterday. I’ll give it a try, and thanks for the mention of 1/2 tsp.
In the blog post about Saccharomyces boulardi Cranberry cocktail, I mentioned that I would also try it with organic orange/carrot juice. This combination seems to work fine, but the sweetness is definitely diminished. Next I’ll use unfiltered Red Jacket Apple Cider.
In Dr. Davis’ Live Event yesterday (Feb. 11) on Crowdcast, he mentioned making “yogurt” using Lactobacillus brevis – the yeast from White Labs WLP672. But he did not mention HOW MUCH of the WLP672 to use with 1 qt. of half and half. Can someone please inquire and post the answer here (or email me)?
Thanks.
GoingHome wrote: «…“yogurt” using Lactobacillus brevis – the yeast from White Labs WLP672.»
I haven’t yet seen any sort of program recipe for any L.b., nor L.b.WLP672 in particular. I’m further unsure as to whether WLP672 will turn out to be the suggested strain to seek when a recipe does arise (other strains may turn out to be more attractive).
Despite what appear to be challenges in sourcing WLP672, people are experimenting with it (I’m not, so far). One member of the Inner Circle site has reported making batches with ½ tsp L.b. in one quart of half&half, for 48 hours. Ideal temperature seems to be uncertain, with both 97°F and 104°F having been tried.
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I look forward to your report on using Florastor.
Bob – yes, Visibiome is a product that I bought a few years ago and have since moved onto other probiotics. I appreciate that Dr. Davis sharing articles about probiotics and new research! Otherwise I would not know about these matters. Will you try making “yogurt” with Florastor?
GoingHome wrote: «Will you try making “yogurt” with Florastor?»
I keep forgetting to pick some up when shopping (it’s widely available here).
But thanks to your question, it’s on the list for our next sortie.
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Let me start by thanking Dr. Davis for posting about making “yogurt” back in 2018 (I think it was)! Since then I’ve made 198 batches using various strains. I always use organic half ‘n half and 2 Tbs. of inulin. They have all been thick and tasty. Here are the strains that I’ve used.
– BioGaia Gastrus – L. reuteri ATCC PTA 6475 and L. reuteri DSM 17938
– BioGaia Osfortis – L. reuteri ATCC PTA 6475
– Super Smart Lactobacillus Rhamnosus GG – L. rhamnosus GG ATCC 53103
– Digestive Advantage by Schiff – BC30 Bacillus coagulans GBI-30, 6086
-Wallaby Kefir Plain – discontinued by manufacturer
– Yakult Shirota – L. casei
– BiotiQuest SugarShift – an 8 strain blend
I’m wondering if Visbiome (unflavored, 8 strain blend) would be good. Perhaps I’ll try it.
And, Dr. Davis’ recent post on fermenting Florastor in cranberry juice is great! I wonder how that probiotic would be in “yogurt.”
So again, thank you Dr. Davis and keep up the good work.
GoingHome wrote: «I’m wondering if Visbiome (unflavored, 8 strain blend) would be good.»
I don’t recall that anyone has reported trying it, on the blogs or on the Inner Circle site. The microbes are only bacteria, so at least no yeast uncertainties arise.
It would require some research into each of the DSM strains (all trademarked™, curiously), to see what, if any, common growth media and ferment temperature would keep them happy.
On a wider context note, I see that Visbiome® is not one of the suggested probiotics listed in the new Super Gut book. It was a suggested probiotic many years ago, as VSL#3®, back when Dr. De Simone was still associated with VSL Pharmaceuticals. And that’s as much as I know about that story.
And on that 2014 blog post, the two other probiotic products then endorsed have also since been dropped, perhaps in part because their brands were bought out by BigBleach and BigCarb.
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