Those of you following my several years of discussions on L. reuteri yogurt will recall that I originally began with the BioGaia Gastrus tablets that were made for infants. Accordingly, this product provided relatively low counts of microbes: 100 million each of two strains. That may sound like a high number if it were money, but as microbes it is a small number. Testing how many tablets were required to ferment as something that looks and smells like yogurt—but of course is not yogurt—I found that it required 10 crushed tablets to reliably yield a satisfactory end-result. Ten crushed tablets yielded 2 billion CFUs (colony-forming units, a count of presumably viable organisms) that has since held up to our efforts: It generally requires 2 billion CFUs of starter microbes to reliably yield a satisfactory thick and rich end-result.
One problem that has arisen on occasion, however, is that we make subsequent batches from a little (e.g., 2 tablespoons) of a prior batch and continue to add 1-2 tablespoons of inulin, fermenting as usual for 36 hours at human body temperature, but obtain a foul-smelling, foul-tasting end-result that grossly separates in to curds and whey. This only happens to some people but can be very disappointing. At first, it was not clear why this happened while the majority of us continue propagate batch-after-batch that are rich, thick, and tasty. (It has never happened in any of my 100+ batches.)
I was discussing this with a scientist friend who remarked, “Well, you know, the inulin is not sterile.” A light went off in my head. I therefore reviewed the certificate of analyses (COAs) of around 10 inulin preparations sourced from manufacturers (not retail products) and, lo and behold, every one contained microbes. Fecal contaminants like E. coli and other “Gram-negative” microbes were undetectable or present at near-zero numbers, but Bacillus species were present in all reviewed preparations at a level of <900 CFUs per gram. If there were, say, 500 CFUs of Bacillus species present per gram, one tablespoon (15 grams) added to your starting mixture would contain around 7500 CFUs. Compare that to the billions (1,000,000,000) of microbes of L. reuteri we were using—my initial view was that L. reuteri numbers would easily overcome the relatively minor counts of Bacillus microbes. (Some Bacillus species such as B. subtilis make a satisfactory “yogurt.” But there are many other species of Bacillus contaminants that may not.)
A unique advantage, however, of Bacillus species is that they have the capacity to go into a quiescent spore-forming mode that is resistant to heat, pH, osmolality, and other challenges. In other words, Bacillus species are tough, extraordinary survivors across a wide variety of threats, taking a beating but surviving. Could repeated fermentations achieved with 1-2 tablespoons of prior batches therefore be associated with serial amplification of Bacillus counts? Right now, that is speculative. I am awaiting DNA sequencing and flow cytometric counts on a bad such batch to see if there are indeed Bacillus species that have become dominant.
In the meantime, should this happen to your L. reuteri yogurt, consider these workarounds:
- Pour off the whey (liquid) from your first or second batch and freeze as ice cubes, making subsequent batches from 2 ice cubes. This way, you have not conducted serial amplification of Bacilli.
- Start with a higher count of L. reuteri. This means that the 10 billion or 20 billion CFUs provided by the MyReuteri that we have released better “overpowers” the presence of Bacilli. For added insurance, you could even begin with more than one capsule, e.g., 40 billion CFUs provided by 2 capsules of the 20 billion product.
- Consider starting from probiotic again after, say, every 10 batches or so. This may serve to prevent continued proliferation of Bacillus species.
- Some have advocated pre-heating the half-and-half or other liquid to 180° F (82° C), but this only kills non-spore forming contaminants, not Bacilli. You can try, but I am not confident that this is a complete solution.
I have also identified a source of inulin that is provided free of all microbes, including Bacilli. We are going to submit this for independent confirmation of its sterility. Should this hold up, we will make this available to everyone later this year.
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I’ve had the same starter going for probably 45-50 batches with almost perfect success every time. Out of nowhere it became extremely tingly on my tongue almost feels like it’s burning my tongue. Any idea what this is????
Ryan Rutledge wrote: «I’ve had the same starter going for probably 45-50 batches with almost perfect success every time.»
I take that to mean that you are using the generational method: a sample of each batch is the starter for the next.
That can work as long as nothing goes wrong. Dr. Davis may have made 100 batches of the original recipe that way.
re: «Out of nowhere it became extremely tingly on my tongue almost feels like it’s burning my tongue. Any idea what this is????»
No guesses; what I can suggest is that if you start over from retail probiotic, consider using the saved🧊starter method, as it provides considerable recourse in case of batch failure.
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My first batch of L. reuteri was made with 10 Tablets of BioGaia and only two teaspoons of Inulin (miss read the instructions) and heated to 100 F for 36 hours. The batch exploded made Curds and Whey. This is due to contamination? Is it ok to eat the kurds and whey? Freezing the whey into ice kills the contaminate? How do I make my next batch and not get contamination? Can I freeze the Inulin?
Patricia Oberg wrote: «My first batch of L. reuteri was made with 10 Tablets of BioGaia…»
That sounds like it would have been BioGaia® Gastrus®, which is no longer recommended, for several reasons. When you need more starter, depending on regional availability, switch to one of the Oxiceutics™ products, or BioGaia Osfortis®.
re: «The batch exploded made Curds and Whey.»
If the container(s) was(were) tightly capped, or completely filled, popped caps and/or overflow can happen. The the☑☒checklists I maintain have some tips on that. If by “explode”, you mean something else, that needs to be explored.
The curds & whey would be consistent with first-batch-syndrome, which is pretty common when using Gastrus as starter (vs. saved yogurt or a higher-CFU probiotic).
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What is the ETA of the sterile inulin?
Debbie Abilock wrote: «What is the ETA of the sterile inulin?»
I’m not aware of any update on that. The blog and the Inner Circle are apt to be the first places an announcement appears. I’ll add a comment to any related blog threads when that happens.
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Can anyone link me to a bacillus subtilis with the specific strain DG101? This is the one with the benefits I really need to make my SIBO yoghurt.
Andrea Casey wrote: «Can anyone link me to a bacillus subtilis with the specific strain DG101?»
That appears to be the (or a) natto strain. I don’t know of a probiotic source. I get zero hits on DG101, but lots of hits on [🔎 price bacillus subtilis natto ]. No recommendations.
I also don’t know if it’s in any way an alternative to strains DE111 or HU58 in program recipes.
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I recently made a combined batch of L. Reuteri (My Reuteri 20 BCFU + L. Gasseri (Biothin 20 BCFU) and 2 tbsp of inulin powder and a qt. of organic half & half. After fermenting for 36 hours at 106 deg., The yogurt was firm but had a grainy texture. Kinda like very small curd cottage cheese. Taste was great, but the texture wasn’t as smooth as when I made it with just L. Reuteri. Was curious if you knew why this occured?
Ron Williams wrote: «…firm but had a grainy texture. Kinda like very small curd cottage cheese. Taste was great, but the texture wasn’t as smooth as when I made it with just L. Reuteri. Was curious if you knew why this occured?»
I have not made that specific recipe yet, so have no direct experience. But people do report this grainy phenomenon from time to time.
I did make a 3-way batch with subtilis, and don’t recall anything unusual about the texture.
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I can never make it to the 36 hours. My yoghurt is solid within 8 hours! I wonder if I leave it for the full 36 hours it will separate and become full of dead microbes. I tried doing it at a lower temperature, 35 degrees Celcius instead of 37, and the same thing happened.
I use a 1/8 tsp of l-reuteri powder, 1 tbs of my last batch, and 1tbs of inulin. We don’t have half and half here in Australia, so I use UHT full cream milk. I did try a mixture of half milk, half cream once – but this did not yield a nice result.
My yoghurt is extremely clean, firm enough to not pour out of the pot when I invert it, smells the way it should, and has that light pleasant tang. Does anyone know why it’s finishing so early, and what kind of microbe count would I be getting? Any suggestions how to get to 36 hours?
Andrea Casey wrote: «I can never make it to the 36 hours. My yoghurt is solid within 8 hours!»
I have not seen that, nor anything close to it, reported previously. But then, I never check mine before 36hr, so I don’t actually know what it looks like at 8hr.
re: «I use a 1/8 tsp of l-reuteri powder, 1 tbs of my last batch…»
What is the powder?
The tbsp of the prior batch is likely all that’s needed.
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I might try only using some from the prior batch as you suggest. The powder I use is “Foods for Gut” L-Reuteri 75 billion cfu/g.
I was under the assumption that once the yoghurt is solid, no more fermenting can happen anyway – that anything after that it starts dying off. I’d love to get confirmation on this
Andrea Casey wrote: «The powder I use is “Foods for Gut” L-Reuteri 75 billion cfu/g.»
That brand does not specify the strain of L. reuteri, so I have no predictions on what yogurtresults might be expected, nor what heath benefits might be expected.
There are several reasons why a probiotic brand might not specify strain. None that I’m aware of raise confidence in the brand. The product would have more credibility if they just made up something, like FFG-021.
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I’ve just written to them to ask what strains they’re using. If they reply, I will share it here!
Andrea Casey wrote: «I’ve just written to them to ask what strains they’re using. If they reply, I will share it here!»
Please do. Someone on the blog or forum did that recently with some other brand, and got back something like “We have no way of knowing that”, which is a jaw-dropping confession.
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The company got back to me – the strain of L-Reuteri in the “Foods for Gut” brand is UALre-16.
Andrea Casey wrote: «The company got back to me – the strain of L-Reuteri in the “Foods for Gut” brand is UALre-16.»
That’s also known as NCIMB 30242 if you want to search for papers on effects. It’s available in other products that disclose it, such as Life Extension’s FLORASSIST® probiotic (which I have used to make a yogurt, although not recently).
It appears to offer some of the benefits of the LRDR and ATCC PTA 6475 strains, possibly including oxytocin production, but does not produce bacteriocins, so is not actively encouraged.
As to why FfG doesn’t disclose it on the label, there are various possibilities including but not limited to:
☐ the strain they use varies over time
☐ they only want customers who think strain doesn’t matter
☐ they think strain doesn’t matter
☐ they are charging 5× what competitors do
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My yogurt thickens after 8 hours, even sooner. I also make it with uht milk, 3.5% fat. I know that l. reuteri divides every 3 hours, but is it possible that in conditions where there is more lactose, this process goes faster? The first dozen or so batches of yogurt are always thick and creamy, and later it changes and becomes similar to regular yogurt. It’s as if the fermentation takes place differently than in H&H milk.
That’s really interesting – with my yoghurt making I actually found that my first batch was still runny after 36 hours. It was my subsequent batches that firmed up more and more quickly each time.
Perhaps the answer is in the previous comment, only using some from the last batch without any more powder. I’ll give it a try.
Do you still leave yours for 36 hours? Is it still nice after that time?
marko jerbic wrote: «I know that l. reuteri divides every 3 hours, but is it possible that in conditions where there is more lactose, this process goes faster?»
The microbes can only metabolize substrate, grow and divide, at some given rate. L. reuteri responds differently to different carbohydrates (and lactose is their favorite). My guess is no: more lactose would not result in an early rate increase. It would potentially extend the ferment time, until the yogurt structure constrains motility. I’m willing to be mistaken.
re: «The first dozen or so batches of yogurt are always thick and creamy, and later it changes and becomes similar to regular yogurt.»
That’s not expected, and is not a great sign. Something has changed, and the top suspect at the moment is stray microbes of environmental or inulin origin.
I use the saved🧊starter method, so all my batches are generation №2 or №3, and totally consistent.
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Finishing early will result in a lower cell count of L. Reuteri. The cell count doubles every three hours, and 36 hours is recommended for multiplication of the L. Reuteri, which will continue after the “yogurt” has set. Starting with 100 Billion cells and fermenting for 36 hours will yield 409600 B cells. At 8 hours you will have about 600 B cells, which is 0.1% of the count after 36 hours.
Thank you for that. Any suggestions as to why my yoghurt is solid so soon? And do you think the microbe count can continue to multiply even after it solidifies? I don’t want to end up with a jar full of dead microbes
Andrea Casey wrote: «Any suggestions as to why my yoghurt is solid so soon?»
Extremely high starting CFUs is a possible suspect. Contamination from some fast-doubling opportinuist microbes is another. Using a MAC (prebiotic) other than inulin might do it also—I’d expect that result with glucomannan, for example (and thus have never tried it).
re: «And do you think the microbe count can continue to multiply even after it solidifies?»
My amateur guess it that grwoth is slowed by lactose exhaustion, plus impaired motility due to the gel-like structure. In any case, refrigeration will slow it dramatically, and of course, freezing will pause it entirely (but wreck the gel).
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I can only use coconut milk. There’s a difference in the recipe and super cut and I can’t find the other one on the blog. The one in the book says add sugar and apparently the other one doesn’t. I also want to do a larger batch. My very first batch using canned coconut milk and heating it, etc. turned out super super runny. I don’t know what I’m doing wrong in the book. It says to ferment for 48 hours and then apparently it’s now only really 36 hours please Let me know the correct recipe for using canned coconut milk or should I be using coconut cream and do I drain the liquid in the can before starting? I don’t know how to double the recipe either with the correct ingredients
Pam Briggs wrote: «I can only use coconut milk.»
That can be the case (which is why the recipe exists), but it’s always worth making sure it applies. Program yogurts have nil lactose, due to the long ferment. Casein beta A1 issues can be dodged by using goat, sheep or A2 bovine. Whey can be drained off.
re: «There’s a difference in the recipe and super cut and I can’t find the other one on the blog.»
Here’s the original 2019 recipe that used gelatin: Making L. reuteri yogurt with coconut milk.
It was followed with raising the question in 2020: Is guar gum safe?
The Super Gut book (2022) has an L. reuteri coconut yogurt recipe using guar. I don’t think that has been posted to the blog so far. It also suggests using BioGaia® Gastrus® as the starter, which is no longer the most effective an economical choice. Use one of these¹²¹.
The Inner Circle {separate subscription} evolved that into a generic coconut base recipe for any bacterial-started yogurt. It notes that canned coconut milk can contain guar, and uses less sucrose (1 tbsp/qt).
re: «I also want to do a larger batch.»
All the recipe ingredients scale up and down linearly, including starter amounts. Same process, temps and time.
re: «It says to ferment for 48 hours and then apparently it’s now only really 36 hours…»
It’s 48 hours in the latest recipe.
re: «…do I drain the liquid in the can before starting?»
No. It’s intended to be incorporated via the hand-blender step. Note that I haven’t made any non-dairy yogurts in years, so don’t have current experience to inform the discussion.
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Hi Dr, 2 questions, 1, what is preferred temp? 98f? or 100 f which is prefered and why?
2, May I use more than 1 quart? ( half and half)example 1 1/2 quarts? if yes are there time temp changes required?
scott macphee wrote: «…what is preferred temp? 98f? or 100 f which is prefered and why?»
The optimal temp for a non-specific strain of L. reuteri might actually be 97°F🌡36°C. Human-compatible commensal microbes have to be able to thrive at 98.6°F🌡37°C of course. Dr. Davis may have data that the program-suggested strains prefer a bit higher, or it might just be for simplicity that 100°F🌡38°C is often suggested.
L. reuteri seems to reproduce adequately over the 95-106°F range, and 106°F is used as the bargain temp for blends with higher-temp species. Don’t go above 108°F. Die-off is reportedly assured at and above 122°F. Keep in mind that consumer thermometers are often only accurate to ±2°F🌡1°C.
re: «…May I use more than 1 quart?…»
Yes: the recipe quantities scale up and down linearly.
Time & temp remain the same.
I’ve made up to a gallon. You can make a pint or even a cup for experimental purposes. For larger amounts, keep the depth less than 8in📏20cm, as some motility or stratifications issues might arise.
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Hi Bob, could you explain how to time the ferment by PH? I recently found the PH of my 36h Osfortis yogurt was only 4.7-ish. Isn’t that too high? Does that mean I should prolong the fermentaion? What’s the ideal PH of reuteri yougurt? Does it vary from different strains?(my shirota yogurt was 4.2-ish)
yan wang wrote: «…could you explain how to time the ferment by PH?…»
I can’t, as I’ve never had any pH measuring devices.
re: «I recently found the PH of my 36h Osfortis yogurt was only 4.7-ish. Isn’t that too high?»
What was it at start?
re: «Does that mean I should prolong the fermentaion?»
You can. I used to routinely run mine to 48hr.
re: «What’s the ideal PH of reuteri yougurt?»
There might not be one. The range shown in the☑☒checklists was based on a remark by Dr. Davis. The key thing is that all the lactose (or other simple saccharide) is gone, and that the CFUs for a ½ cup portion are in the 60B-300B range. That’s probably a broad pH range.
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Good morning! I have few questions. I just finished my very first batch of this fermented milk, just put it in the fridge and is very excited to start eating it as my poor little body needs it greatly. As I opened the lid of my machine (the Ultimate Probiotic Yogurt), one of the bowl was perfect wile the second one was looking weird. It have a LOT of “plasma like” liquid in the bottom and the top of the “yogourt” is full of tiny craters and have a very very strong smell of very very dirty socks.
1) WHY is one bowl is OK and the other one not while it was the same batch put together in the same machine at the same temperature and the same time of fermentation? Did I do something wrong?
2) Am I better to ditch the funky bowl or can I reuse it as the starter for a second batch?
3) Since I was a baby, I was put on antibiotic a lot for pneumonia, bronchitis and recently for huge infection in a double mastectomy surgery and shingles. So, I think that I never had this wonderful bacteria in me… and yes, I have all the symptoms (or so) for SIBO. My question is,…will I be able to repopulate my tummy with this good bacteria and establish a proper and normal L.R colony in my digestive tract, even though I never had it? My mom was very sick and had a lot of digestive tract (she died of stomach cancer) and assimilation problems so I think she was very depleted in those good bacteria and had nothing to give me.
Thank you so much for your time and kindness in answering my questions
Have a wonderful day
Amyah
What About “now food” Inulin? Is it contaminated or free of Bacteria?
Firdaus Khan wrote: «What About “now food” Inulin? Is it contaminated or free of Bacteria?»
It’s what I use, however, my personal process includes a [re]pasteurization step, with the inulin whisked it, that would kill all but spore-forming bacteria. I never see any signs of contamination in my batches.
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I would recommend starting with TWO of the MyReuteri capsules for 40BCFU and TWO scoops of inulin. I started my adventure here with Toniiq Reuteri which had 50BCPU per capule, then was disappointed by the MyReuteri when I started – a stinky, cheesy batch (almost trashed the whole project for Darling Wife). We tried a second time with TWO capsules and got good results (although Darling Wife still prefers the Toniiq in spite of my protestations about “strain”…)
I make yogurt from Biogaia Gastrus tablets. They contain two strains of L. Reuteri: ATCC PTA 6475 and DSM 17938. I read somewhere that PTA 6475 is the preferred strain. Is that true, or are both strains equally potent? Unfortunately, I can’t get My Reuteri.
marko jerbic wrote: «…Gastrus tablets. They contain two strains of L. Reuteri: ATCC PTA 6475 and DSM 17938. I read somewhere that PTA 6475 is the preferred strain.»
Correct; the DSM 17938 lacks several benefits of interest in the program. But if you have Gastrus®, you can keep using it.
re: «…I can’t get My Reuteri.»
If you can get BioGaia® Gastrus, you can probably get BioGaia Osfortis®, which contains only ATCC PTA 6475, at usefully high CFUs per capsule, and already in powder form.
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I can’t find Osfortis in any web shop in the EU anymore. It’s like they’ve taken it off the market. It’s only available on iHerb. On the Croatian Biogaia website, Osfortis is no longer listed as a product. Gastrus is still there, as are some children’s drops with the DSM 17938 strain, and another Prodentis product with the ATCC PTA 5289 strain.
I wanted to go for Osfortis because Gastrus is a mixture of two strains, and who knows which strain will prevail after 10 batches of yogurt. Do you have any information about that ATCC PTA 5289 strain?
marko jerbic wrote: «I can’t find Osfortis in any web shop in the EU anymore. It’s like they’ve taken it off the market.»
Interesting; thanks for the report.
re: «It’s only available on iHerb.»
Where would they be shipping it from?
re: «Do you have any information about that ATCC PTA 5289 strain?»
The last report from Dr. Davis on that was: insufficient data to form an opinion.
Depending on price and shipping expense, perhaps people in the EU need to see if Oxiceutics™ can export MyReuteri™ there yet. Their site shows a € price for Croatia, for example, but you might have to email the address in their FAQs to verify that they can ship.
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I bought some things from iHerb, they were shipped from the USA. I emailed Oxiceutics, they replied that they don’t ship to Croatia. A bit strange, because they ship to some other EU countries. Probably the legislation hasn’t been fully harmonized yet.
Ćao Marko, I’ve just ordered MyReuteri from Oxiceutics to Bosnia and Herzegovina. Maybe things change in a meantime.
About the yakult yogurt.
in the Dr’s super gut book it said to use “1 2 ounce bottle” or it’s 1 or 2 ounce bottle yakult?
Abdulla Alshehhi wrote: «About the yakult yogurt. in the Dr’s super gut book it said to use “1 2 ounce bottle” or it’s 1 or 2 ounce bottle yakult?»
It’s One two-ounce bottle.
In some metric editions of the book, this was mis-read and mis-converted.
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Pozdrav Azra! Hvala na obavijest! Thanks for the info!
Chat gpt suggests to sterilise inulin solution with 22 micron syringe filter.
Comment *What if you heat the milk and cream together with inulin
to 100gr C (212 Farenheit) for a while.
Doesn’t the risk get minimized then?
Or what if you use potato starch (Bob’s Red Mill) instead of inulin?
Mats Johansson wrote: «What if you heat the milk and cream together with inulin
to 100gr C (212 Farenheit) for a while. Doesn’t the risk get minimized then?»
100°C🌡212°F might kill more stray microbes, but it could literally boil the dairy, possibly with undesired consequences for the properties of the yogurt.
I take the mix to 180-195°F for 10 min, then rapid-cool to ferment temp to add starter. It’s been working with no signs of contamination, but this may be largely luck in inulin selection.
re: «Or what if you use potato starch (Bob’s Red Mill) instead of inulin?»
Dr. Davis has remarked that potato starch may be at even greater risk of contamination. And this risk may be unavoidable without using some sort of irraditation to sterilize the potato without cooking it. Heating raw potato cooks it, reducing the glucose polymer to shorter glucose chains (sugar, really), largely defeating its role as a prebiotic, and increasing the net carbs in the finished yogurt.
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Contamination of inulin with bacillus bacteria is the biggest problem. There is a process called Tyndallization, which can also destroy spores in milk mixed with inulin. It is boiled several times at high temperatures, which forces the spores to open, making them sensitive to temperature.
But wouldn’t it be better to start making yogurt with probiotics, but without inulin in the first batch? Of course, there will be fewer bacteria, but still enough for the second and every subsequent batch. And that would ensure that the first batch that we freeze into tablets is free of contamination.
By the way, I had a case where my uht milk also soured, and that was in the refrigerator. So nothing is 100%, sometimes you just have to be lucky.
marko jerbic wrote: «…a process called Tyndallization…»
A method of sterilizing the inulin via microwave oven is being conjectured in the Inner Circle forum. No recipe yet.
re: «But wouldn’t it be better to start making yogurt with probiotics, but without inulin in the first batch?»
That goes to your view of the carbohydrate staging. Based on published science, L. reuteri has a definite preference for lactose over fructan. It’s likely that it consumes the lactose first, then turns to the inulin, avoiding mass die-off due to substrate exhaustion. Without some MAC cushion, you’d have to time the ferment very precisely, and perhaps by pH.
re: «…I had a case where my uht milk also soured…»
Yep. That’s probably another {rare} benefit of [re]pasteurizing, with the inulin and whisk in the pot—which I do, and I never get batch failures.
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